Can someone tell me if the PyCon Adria Richards Sexism problem was discussed in detail on the TWi...

[G+_Damian Mongru]

Can someone tell me if the PyCon/Adria Richards/Sexism problem was discussed in detail on the TWiT network this week. I have read quite a few articles about this, and was intrigued to see what everyone thought about it. There is the problem of what actually occurred in this incident, as well as the important and trending issue of sexism in the tech community.

 

I felt the discussion on TWiT was all over the place. They started with mentioning Denise Howell was on the 40 hottest/beautifullest/whatever it was called women in tech as a kind of expression of inherent sexism. This turned into a discussion on copyright issues, and how the photographer owns the photo. I think we missed the point.

 

As for PyCon, this brings up issues of what is acceptable behaviour; are sexual/vulgar jokes sexist? If it's not sexist, should the person who tells the joke be accountable for other people being offended by it? My general feeling is that we have a rare situation where no-one is right - I think that the two lads making the joke didn't do anything wrong but be careful of what you say in public* / going to Twitter to complain is not the right way to do it / I don't think people should be losing their job over this.

 

*There is the argument that although this is not sexist behaviour, the constant tone has a negative effect - it fosters an environment which may alienate certain women from wanting to be part of it.

 

Just wondering what other people think about this.

[G+_Martijn Megens]

This is whats starts all trouble:

https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/

 

In the end you'll have a separate event for men and women, because of the strict COD, no one feels comfortable.

 

Never give in to the most extreme (vulgar and over-sensitive) people.

 

We have common decency, and if all fails, the law.

 

http://search.dilbert.com/comic/Dongle

[G+_Damian Mongru]

Timothy Habart  I totally agrre that we need a lot more information. I originally read about this on The Verge http://www.theverge.com/2013/3/21/4132752/thug-mentality-how-two-dick-jokes-exploded-into-ddos-and-death-threats and the comments section has a lot of extra information. The problem with posting the problem on Twitter is that there is no rewind button. It is saying 'these people are guilty of making sexist/offensive comments'. It then is much more difficult for the two guys to explain themselves.

 

However, Martijn Megens  it is clear that they broke the Code of Conduct, but I still think taking a picture of them and posting it on Twitter is also unacceptable.

 

TWiT yesterday was full of sexist comments, I guess context is everything in these situations.

[G+_Garage Geek Guy]

I think using the word 'dongle' is just asking for trouble. It's a softball.

[G+_Martijn Megens]

The point is that she tweeted the COD prior to the event, i find that odd. Like she was looking for an excuse to wave the COD at someones face.

And afterwards she acted like a crusader for justice.

 

When you need a COD to meet each other, don't bother...

COD's are the root of all evil.

[G+_Damian Mongru]

Martijn Megens The more I read about this the more curiouser and curiouser it gets. I don't want to cast aspersions, especially if there is a case to answer for, but there is definitely a lot more information we need from all sides. Somewhere in the verge commetns there are a few hypocritical tweets to be found, though.

 

However, getting back to my original discussion, there was a huge discussion on whether Samsung were sexist during the Galaxy 4 launch, when it appeared like terrible stereotyping. Yet on TWiT, an entire sexism case - from what is sexism, how to confront it and how do we 'police' and discipline it once it is uncovered was met with a few 'dongle' jokes and more discussion on photographic copyright.

[G+_Martijn Megens]

Yeah, they breezed over it, which was a shame. But i understand, it isn't really a Tech topic, its much broader.

[G+_Errol Bruce-Knapp]

"Breezed"? Yesterday's TWiT covered it well enough. Even brought in Denise Howell to round things out. Certainly more than filled me in on what I needed to know... Thanks Leo & OMG Chad...

[G+_Martijn Megens]

Well, its far more complex, they left out a lot, but that's understandable, its a tech show.

[G+_Damian Mongru]

Leo does start the section saying it was something that he 'didn't really want to cover', so I think the main facts were covered, and some general opinions, nothing really in depth. Sexism in the tech industry seems to be mentioned a lot recently (maybe it's just the people I follow) so I thought it would have gotten more coverage. I think they spent as much time covering this as they did Apple's two factor authentication.

[G+_Harold Crews]

Being overly sensitive is every bit as bad as being insensitive. I have no patience for people who look for opportunities to be offended. She is a PR person for goodness sake and ought to have a better sense for how controversies play out. If her employer did not fire her simply for the fact that she was costing it business and damaging its reputation then she ought to have been fired for incompetence. People who raise a stink rarely come out smelling like a rose.

[G+_Garage Geek Guy]

During the show, Leo and Dvorak both said they wanted to know what the jokes were exactly, which I would like to know too.  TWiT covered it as well as they could, unless they were to bring some of the combatants on the show.

[G+_Damian Mongru]

Yeah, I'm not sure TWiT covered it as well as they could. Reading other articles and points of view show a wider context for this story. Lonnie Honeycutt  I'm not sure how important the actual joke was - it seems to be that the joke wasn't sexist in a derogatory, discriminatory or prejudiced way, it was double entendre. Though this is enough to break conference rules is it enough for the events to play out as they did (loss of jobs/DDOSing etc).

 

Just having Denise Howells to 'round things out' is not enough. I think I mentioned above that she mentioned that everything you say out in public is public record - but what does that mean in general, and in this case. For example, we all understand when out in public to not act like fools, but whose fault is it if you are offended by other's comments. Also, it felt like Denise Howells was giving me homework, she said it would be good to read Jolie O'Dell's alternate reality article, and Sheryl Sandberg's book. I think this was concerning a latent sexist environment that can be built up in industries etc with huge gender inequalities.

 

Jason Snell had some good points regarding what this means for combatting sexism in the future.

 

My general feeling was that the facts of the incident were mentioned in a random way, and lets move on quickly to the next topic. I understand that they might feel this topic may not be suitable for TWiT, or they didn't have enough time to discuss it fully, or they think the whole thing is not newsworthy. That's why I ask if anyone had seen the topic discussed elsewhere.

 

Dvorak is probably right though and this incident will be forgotten about in two months/weeks/days.

[G+_Garage Geek Guy]

Damian Mongru Some jokes I can maybe see why she would be offended.  Most 'dongle' and 'forking' jokes I can think of would be nothing more than silly or annoying without challenging someone's gender equality.  

 

I fail to see why you would consider what was actually said to be unimportant.  I think it would be hard to form a solid opinion, or cover the story (for a news outlet), without knowing what the jokes actually were.

[G+_Damian Mongru]

Lonnie Honeycutt  I was trying to say that the nature of the joke is as important as the actual words spoken. For example, if an overtly sexist joke was told instead, and their photos were put on twitter, and they were removed from the conference, and all parties said 'that's fair, I told a sexist joke', would anyone need to know the actual words spoken. Or is knowing the nature of the joke enough to be able discuss what measures are appropriate.

 

From what I have read, I thought the general consensus of opinion was that the joke referred to 'big dongles' and the forking the repo section wasn't even a sexual joke. To slightly undermine myself, I'm not saying it wouldn't be helpful to know what was said. As I said above, this case was more than someone saying something stupid, it was posting their picture online, and the many repercussions that it set in motion. I'm not sure, in this case, how much extra it would add knowing the actual words spoken.

 

There are many subtleties here, and I'm not sure how blurred the lines are between them. On one hand there is no sexism, on the other there is the overt sexism where people aren't given opportunities they are worthy of by merit because of their gender. I.e discrimination. There is also a latent sexism e.g. where the overall male culture dissuades women from wanting to join the tech community. I thought that what was said at the conference falls into the last category.

 

Funnily enough, it turns out different people have different opinions. My thoughts were this story crystalised some of the difficulties for women in the tech community, and also fed into the zeitgeist where sexism of all kinds in the tech industry was being called out e.g. booth babes / the Lean in book / Samsung's Galaxy S4 and SA washing machine launches) and as such allowed for an important discussion to be had, and hoped it had happened somewhere in a TWiT netcast. Others feel that this 'actual' story was covered thoroughly enough, and TWiT agreed with you, and that's cool too.