Someone help me out with this whole Apple versus FBI thing

[G+_Steve Martin]

Ronald Stepp That's not what is going on here. Actually, you can put someone in jail for failing to comply with a legal court order. That has been done before and is within the Courts powers in this case.

 

So yes, unless Apple can prove undue burden, they are going to have a hard time wiggling out of this.

[G+_Ronald Stepp]

Can a court order force a Gun Manufacturer to build guns that require a remote "yes" command from a judge before it will fire?

[G+_John Phillips]

Mobile phones would have to be the greatest spying device ever created, from the other side of the globe you can monitor a persons movements, get a selfie, check their appointments, get their passwords, etc etc, a real treasure trove, But if government agencies can access this info so can the bad guys!

This is a really big issue that is much bigger than Apple or the iPhone, it's about how we do everything on the Internet, so much of what we do with day to day business has been transferred to the Internet and if people loose faith in a secure means to do this then it could mean the end of the Internet as we know it.

Apple need to win this and set the benchmark!

[G+_Steve Martin]

Ronald Stepp That's a straw man argument. The court would have to take a number of extraordinary steps to do that. And it isn't what the FBI is asking.

 

Better example: can a court ask a motel manager to provide the FBI with the master key so they can search the rooms they have already gotten permission to search? Yep, they sure can. Can they ask that the FBI be given the keys forever so they can just walk through the hotel whenever they want to check for illegal activity? Nope.

 

The court is not asking Apple to break their encryption or weaken it. They are asking for a one time piece of code to be installed on this device only to allow the FBI to hack the passcode. A very very different thing from weakening encryption. They are even saying that Apple will install the firmware themselves so the FBI doesn't have the bits to use elsewhere.

 

Even Apple has pretty much admitted that doing so isn't impossible. That a key can be applied so that this firmware only works on this specific phone has been pretty much stipulated.

 

The FBI has been very very clever about making this a specific request over a specific phone. Which is exactly what the Supreme court has said law enforcement must do to obtain a court order. They can't go on fishing expeditions or ask for keys to every device.

[G+_John Phillips]

Steve Martin if the FBI came to me and asked to see my phone I would give it to them willingly knowing that I have nothing to hide,

It's not the FBI that I'm worried about , it's the bad guys!

[G+_Ronald Stepp]

Now I'm hearing that Apple admitted they could crack the new phones... from a source I trust...  didn't see the original article he did yet...  if so, then fuck you apple for lying to us... I'll have to do some checking.

[G+_Dave Ethington]

Ok, this is a long quote, but this is what Apple would have to do to comply with the FBI's request.  TLDR version: They would need to implement a new project, dedicate 6-10 engineers to it for 4 weeks, and then be could be forced to testify about their methods as this would be a forensic procedure.  Full version from their filing:

"The compromised operating system that the government demands would require significant resources and effort to develop. Although it is difficult to estimate, because it has never been done before, the design, creation, validation, and deployment of the software likely would necessitate six to ten Apple engineers and employees dedicating a very substantial portion of their time for a minimum of two weeks, and likely as many as four weeks.... Members of the team would include engineers from Apple’s core operating system group, a quality assurance engineer, a project manager, and either a document writer or a tool writer.... No operating system currently exists that can accomplish what the government wants, and any effort to create one will require that Apple write new code, not just disable existing code functionality.... Rather, Apple will need to design and implement untested functionality in order to allow the capability to enter passcodes into the device electronically in the manner that the government describes.... In addition, Apple would need to either develop and prepare detailed documentation for the above protocol to enable the FBI to build a brute-force tool that is able to interface with the device to input passcode attempts, or design, develop and prepare documentation for such a tool itself.... Further, if the tool is utilized remotely (rather than at a secure Apple facility), Apple will also have to develop procedures to encrypt, validate, and input into the device communications from the FBI.... This entire development process would need to be logged and recorded in case Apple’s methodology is ever questioned, for example in court by a defense lawyer for anyone charged in relation to the crime.... 

 

"Once created, the operating system would need to go through Apple’s quality assurance and security testing process.... Apple’s software ecosystem is incredibly complicated, and changing one feature of an operating system often has ancillary or unanticipated consequences.... Thus, quality assurance and security testing would require that the new operating system be tested on multiple devices and validated before being deployed.... Apple would have to undertake additional testing efforts to confirm and validate that running this newly developed operating system to bypass the device’s security features will not inadvertently destroy or alter any user data.... To the extent problems are identified (which is almost always the case), solutions would need to be developed and re-coded, and testing would begin anew.... As with the development process, the entire quality assurance and security testing process would need to be logged, recorded, and preserved.... Once the new custom operating system is created and validated, it would need to be deployed on to the subject device, which would need to be done at an Apple facility.... And if the new operating system has to be destroyed and recreated each time a new order is issued, the burden will multiply."

[G+_Dave Ethington]

Oh, and here is an example of a tool that can brute force the passcode from there: 

[G+_Floyd Fernandez]

I think it's wrong to have some work for the government without compensation!

[G+_Floyd Fernandez]

Brian Moses Wow! I didn't even think about from that perspective. What is the FBI doing, this is really unconscionable by demanding Apple do this.

[G+_Steve Martin]

Floyd Fernandez In fact, the Government can and does do that regularly. For instance, if you are summoned for Jury Duty, the Government usually doesn't pay you anything. In some states, they may offer something like a few dollars a day to pay for parking, lunch or such. It's what they used to call "doing your civic duty." There is also no requirement that an employer pay their people while on Jury Duty. Although most large companies do that.

 

The straight up financial aspect of this is the least likely argument for Apple to use. With something like US$200 Billion in cash, Apple could pay a large team of engineers to do this work without any real harm.

 

Now, the effects on Apple's reputation in the Market could have a significant impact. Mr. Cook is no doubt considering that issue as well.

[G+_Floyd Fernandez]

Steve Martin isn't there "reasonable assistance" and having a company work in creating a product go beyond that?

[G+_Donald Weller]

John Phillips That is a terrible argument. That is like arguing that you don't care about the 1st amendment because you have nothing to say. It is not about having something to hide and about holding them to the standard they should be help to.

[G+_Ronald Stepp]

John Phillips if the FBI asked to put cameras in your house and bathroom to film you 24 hours a day, would you?  Or do you have something to hide?

[G+_John Phillips]

I really don't care about the 1st or the 2nd amendment because they don't affect me, But this whole issue of putting a back door in any kind of encryption is going to affect everyone around the world, and really renders encryption useless,do you really think they will stop with Apple?

Do people not remember that the FBI got hacked just recently and have all their accounts etc and are threatening to post online?

And another point I'd like to make is even if the NSA or FBi got access to everyone iPhone or other data access, does anyone really think they will stop terrorists? You really don't have to have a mobile phone to walk into any Walmart or gun shop and buy a complete Arsenal of weapons and go down to their local school and blow everyone away, the lunacy of this whole debate is nuts, the FBI is barking up the wrong tree!

[G+_Donald Weller]

Actually the 1st and 3nd Amendments affect you a lot. You just may not be aware of it. For example because of the First Amendment you feel perfectly happy discussing in public you desires for privacy. That would likely not happen in a more restrictive regime. Same for the second amendment. You are able to travel more freely and have more freedom because your government does not know if you have a means to defend yourself or not.