G+_Ben Reese Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 Hoping for some server advice... I am planning on building a new PC in a couple months to replace my 10 yo desktop which I would re-purpose into a dedicated NAS, but am curious whether I'd be better off just buying a used Server. For $250 I could get a i5 6600k processor, or I could get a dual-Xeon processor server with 24GB of RAM. (http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-ProLiant-DL360-G7-2x-Xeon-E5620-QC-2-4Ghz-24GB-P410i-512MB-8SFF-2xPSU-Server-/281933512804) It would be nice to be able to do a little bit of gaming if I wanted - which the new build would allow, but I'd mostly like to be able to run VMs easily which my dual-core Pentium can't really handle. Thoughts and/or advice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G+_610GARAGE Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 If you just want to play, then your desktop would be fine. But if you will be using this NAS fairly frequently, then I would suggest the server. 10y is a long time for a computer. Don't want to lose access of your data because something died. Usually server grade hardware is a bit more durable. I also think that server grade hardware will give you a performance boost. I find that servers can handle running a lot more threads without choking. Maby it's because they have at least twice as many cores. :) Don't know if you know this, but that server will be LOUD. It will sound like a plane is taking off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G+_Travis Hershberger Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 Well, the old desktop is going to pull FAR less power. That said, the server would be far more useful. If you setup the server to wake up from a deep sleep state via the LAN, then it shouldn't be terrible. Just keep in mind that the fans in server cases are LOUD, wouldn't want it in a living space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G+_Ben Reese Posted March 24, 2016 Author Share Posted March 24, 2016 Excellent point about the noise. That's not something I really thought about. I'm also not sure how OS licensing works with a dual-processor server. I can get Windows Server from Dreamspark and it looks like VMware Sphere is free to a certain point, but not sure whether either of those licenses would expand to one of these servers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G+_610GARAGE Posted March 24, 2016 Share Posted March 24, 2016 Ben Reese I know windows server 2008 R2 can run on at least 4 physical cpus. Standard windows is limited to 2 physical sockets, and Windows home server is limited to one physical cpus. As far as VMware, I would be surprised if they limit it to fewer than 2 cpus. That's fairly standard. I know that xenservers works just fine on 2 cpus if you're not tied to VMware and they do give you grief. Also, keep an eye out for a 4U server. There generally a little quieter. 2U servers are loud(smaller fans). I would hate to hear a 1U server. :) Also if you're open to other brands, I find that supermicro makes excellent hardware and are fairly quiet. And when I say fairly quiet, that's fairly quet for a server. There still noisy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G+_Keith Mallett Posted March 24, 2016 Share Posted March 24, 2016 Server processors are designed to manage server type requests and threads, they aren't good for gaming. You would need to get a really good video card (or cards) and load it up with RAM if you want it to run a server OS and do gaming. I would suggest you balance you purchases with hardware that is good for running a server OS and then build a good gaming desktop. Be careful about buying used servre hardware if you haven't had experience with that system or know someone that can tell you about it. The Dell T110ii is a really good server build and it goes on sale from time to time if you can spend up to $600. It is very quiet as far as servers go (some of my other servers sound like aircraft taking off when they boot) and supports lots of drives. If you have your own drives, you can save a bunch of money by buying an empty chassis with only 8 gig of RAM and a good xeon processor, then adding your own drives and buying after market RAM later as you need it. My T110 has a single processor with 4 cores and I've got over a dozen VM's running (four VM servers) and it does great and is quiet, RAM is the key though, you need to balance the allocation. If you want to go with an MS OS then download an eval version of version of Server 2008 or 2012 (not sure if 2008 is still available on TechNet) but 2012 R2 is the better choice. Its good for a 180 days trial and the datacentre version supports unlimited VM's. Them make all of your server tests as VM's and you'll be good to do anything you want in your home lab without worrying about messing up anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G+_Ben Reese Posted March 24, 2016 Author Share Posted March 24, 2016 Thanks for the additional advice. I'm still going back and forth between the two ideas. I like the idea of a 4U server - especially if it's quieter. If I go the rack-mount server route, I'll probably try out the IKEA Lack Rack idea. I'm definitely not tied to VMware or any brand of server either - just would prefer to stick with Intel processors since I'm more familiar with their capabilities and model number scheme. HAK5 did a few shows a while back using XenServer, so that looks like a decent option too. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G+_Ben Reese Posted March 24, 2016 Author Share Posted March 24, 2016 Right now I'm so constrained with this old hardware. When I built it, the Core2Duo was pretty new, but I chose to save my $$$ instead. I can't risk losing data and I need more storage, so definitely need to setup RAID. At the same time, I want to be able to experiment with different Linux and Windows Server setups - especially with MS SQL Server coming to Linux soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G+_Ben Reese Posted March 24, 2016 Author Share Posted March 24, 2016 Keith Mallett sorry, didn't see your comment before. I don't have a lot of time for gaming, so kinda fell out of the hobby after college. The idea of saving money on storage and adding my own is preferred too. Great to know that a single processor server can run VMs so well! What hypervisor are you using? I've been running Windows Server OSs for several years now and am on 2016 TP3 now. I'm still able to get a free license from Dreamspark for the full OS (had 2012r2 before). That would probably still be my primary OS, but I like the idea of that being a VM too so I can easily clone it and experiment if I want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G+_Keith Mallett Posted March 24, 2016 Share Posted March 24, 2016 I'm running both HyperV and VMware ESX but I'm spending most of my time in MS as I'm working on MCSE. ESX runs well on older hardware as its less intensive on resources but 2012 R2 has some great changes for HyperV. I'd suggest staying with 2012 R2 as the host for now and running 2016 as a VM. You can leave the Host as a workgroup so it doesn't cause any problems and run your domain on the 2016 if you want but I will tell you I've had a few problems getting Win 7 and 8 clients to work well with the 2016 domain and the opposite, getting Win 10 clients to play nice with the 2012 domain. If you're going to run Exchange I'd recommend you install 2010 on 2012 R2 then upgrade it to 2013. If you start with 2013 you're missing out on some of the experience as MS has compressed the roles in 2013 down to only 2. The key is get a really good processor and pay attention to what is using the ram. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G+_Travis Hershberger Posted March 24, 2016 Share Posted March 24, 2016 Ben Reese I can't recommend XenServer enough. Install it on a 16GB USB stick. You can do HA for free, and easily with HA-Lizard if you ever get a 2nd server. And with Xen Orchestra, you can manage everything from a web browser (including backups!) http://mangolassi.it/topic/7349/xen-orchestra-on-ubuntu-15-10-complete-installation-instructions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G+_Keith Mallett Posted March 24, 2016 Share Posted March 24, 2016 very cool Travis Hershberger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G+_Ben Reese Posted March 24, 2016 Author Share Posted March 24, 2016 Loving all the advice! It sounds like if I can get a good deal on a Xeon server then I should go with that, otherwise the i5 will be a good option. I'll stay away from VMware and use either XenServer or Windows Server 2012r2 (maybe 2016 if it's finally available when I do my upgrade) as the host OS. I already planned on probably 16GB RAM, so that should be good to get me started. FYI. Hoping to get my bonus in July, so I'll plan on sharing my results when I get the upgrades done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G+_Scott Wilkinson Posted March 24, 2016 Share Posted March 24, 2016 I have ran both approaches. Previously I had used HP W series workstations, HP Workstations are pretty close to servers in a desktop case, they worked great. The Z series would be an updated equivalent. The Desktop case will give bigger, quieter fans, and possibly more drive expansion. At one point, I had 3 W series workstations in the house, all have moved on to new lives with family members. All 3 are still alive, and even running the original fans, despite being 10 yrs old! They are built really well! I have had mixed results with Dells workstations though. Couple years ago I replaced them with a custom built machine using a single Haswell i5-4570S, at only 65w TDP. I am currently running Win 2008 R2, and 5 VMs under Hyper-V, with no problems CPU wise. The CPU is using the stock cooler, and is silent. I recycled a full tower case and currently have 10 drives in there, no problem. 4 drives are SSDs, and 6 are WD Reds. That machine averages a total of only about 100 watts draw according to the UPS it is attached to. I now have to use a space heater in my office, instead of opening a window in the winter. Both options are good, but as previously mentioned, I would skip the rack mount cases. Those fans can be deafening! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G+_Ben Reese Posted March 25, 2016 Author Share Posted March 25, 2016 Scott Wilkinson - Good to hear. It sounds like pretty much anything I go with will work 100x better than what I have now. I did some research today comparing Xeon to Core (i5/i7) processors. For what I was looking at, it seems they're all the same with only a few exceptions. The i5 has the same specs as the i7 without hyperthreading and with less L3 cache and the Xeon has the same specs as the i7 without the integrated graphics and without overclocking. I've still got a while (3 or 4 months), but wanted to start researching my options now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G+_Scott Wilkinson Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 Make sure to dig into those specs on the Xeons. There can be a wide variation in what gets labeled a Xeon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G+_Travis Hershberger Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 Scott Wilkinson Yeah, the Xeon brand has been around for a long, long time. I've seen some used equipment with single cores and no virtualization support. That shouldn't be a probably with anything G5 or newer from HP, or 2950 or newer from Dell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G+_Ben Reese Posted March 25, 2016 Author Share Posted March 25, 2016 I won't buy anything unless I know what I'm getting. With new processors, I'm looking at stuff released in the last 1-2 years. Quad-core is a minimum, hardware virtualization is a requirement (the main feature missing from my current processor), and hyperthreading is preferred. Oh, and everything new I've looked at so far has been 3.3GHz minimum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G+_Ben Reese Posted March 25, 2016 Author Share Posted March 25, 2016 Then there's this guy (My PlayHouse on YouTube) who has what appears to be an overkill home server closet: https://youtu.be/5Pyj_MQcLI0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G+_Scott Wilkinson Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 If you are looking for 1-2 yr old server /workstations, then building is probably the way to go. Off-lease machines are typically going to be 3-5 yrs old. Newer than that will be harder to find, and still be a bit of a premium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G+_Doug Wagner Posted April 6, 2016 Share Posted April 6, 2016 Have to agree. It's not about how fast a rig is anymore..sort of. Graphics throughput is of course a concern. Noise is a large concern. One last point: Don't accept just any NIC. Go with a quality Intel or HP network connection for anything that you want to be a good performer. Note that refurb NICs are a good value most times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G+_Travis Hershberger Posted April 6, 2016 Share Posted April 6, 2016 Doug Wagner Yes, 1000 times yes. Broadcom nics are more hassle than they are worth many times. Just get a server grade used Intel from someplace like Stallard Tech. (www.stikc.com). They've got duel gigabit port Intel cards in both HH and FH for $30 at the moment. Quad port goes for $65. 10Gb for $140. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G+_Keith Mallett Posted April 6, 2016 Share Posted April 6, 2016 Dang... Shipping to Canada is too high! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G+_Ben Reese Posted April 6, 2016 Author Share Posted April 6, 2016 Awesome! I figure from the domain name, but just confirmed they're located in Kansas City (Overland Park, actually) so within 30 min from my house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G+_Travis Hershberger Posted April 6, 2016 Share Posted April 6, 2016 Keith Mallett I don't know if xByte.com would have reasonable shipping in Canada or not. I don't remember the off-lease and/or scratch'ndent vendors in Canada :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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