G+_T Nohands Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 Fr. Robert Ballecer, SJ & Bryan Burnett as you are looking at low cost or high heat exchange devices I would show you the most efficient means of air temp manipulation. "The Liquid Geothermal Sump"!!! Before I was Nohands I worked with a small business that did custom displays usually aquatic in nature but occasionally did outdoor and indoor environmental manipulation as well one of our biggest help and most often used devices was a Liquid Geothermal sump which is using flexible PVC, a large sealable water container, PVC bulkheads, PVC to 1" PEX converters, Thermal PEX (used to heat floors), and an inline squirrel cage Fan (Yes Community there is such a fan) I've designed, plumbed, and install many Geothermal sumps not 1 ever being the same as another. To quote Fr. Robert Ballecer, SJ on 1 chat reply they can be "APIA" to plumb fill and install even with a backhoe but worth every effort. (IF IT'S YOURS) so here is a quick sketch and explanation done on ms paint forgive the crude sketch I am Nohands and drawing is hard using a stylus held in your mouth but Padre you might like this concept it can work as an outdoor AC & Heat system way more efficient and cheaper than a commercial outdoor AC they first started at 20 to 25 thousand our setups started around 1 or 2 thousand plus install.Hope you can blow up the picture and understand. :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G+_Mark Harry Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 I wanted to be an Architect, but got distracted. We were designing geothermal air systems in drafting class in the late 70's, why hasn't it taken off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G+_T Nohands Posted August 24, 2015 Author Share Posted August 24, 2015 First as the son of an Architect I can tell you no one wants them except to draft others work and put their signatures down to hurry through "progress" That's why so much is against code and no company wants this kind of efficiency where's the $ made by repairs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G+_610GARAGE Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 Mark Harry I work for an HVAC company, and we do geothermal. However, there are some problems with geo. First is expensive. Its kindof hard to convince someone to spend 5,000+ (don't quote me on that figure) extra on a geo system compared to a traditional system. Second, you need land. Granted, if you use a vertical loop, you only need enough land for a well driller. But not everyone has enough room for a well driller, and not everyone wants to deal with that mess. Third, there are only two ways (that I know of) to heat your house. Forced hot air, or in floor radiant heat. If you have radiant baseboard heat, or radiators, you're into even more money to install ductwork (if you don't have air conditioning or if the air conditioning ductwork is inadequate for heating). Or rip up all of your floors and install in floor radiant heat. Fourth, hear in the US, the construction industry is full of a bunch of people who hate new things. The construction industry doesn't adapt quickly to new technology. I do see it becoming more popular, but it still has a long way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G+_Joshua “Wizdum” Burgess Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 610bob I think this is a different kind of geothermal than you may be used to. Theres the deep well kind that is capable of providing a source of heat/hot water, and then theres this kind. The kind of geothermal shown in this picture only requires an area the size of a car, and is only buried 8ish feet down. It wont provide heat or hot water, but it can provide air at ~65 degrees to compliment existing heating and cooling systems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G+_610GARAGE Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 Joshua Burgess So this type of system isn't hooked up to a heat pump? Is the water pumped directly into a water to air heat exchanger? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G+_Joshua “Wizdum” Burgess Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 610bob Correct. Its a very simple system that usually just uses a tank, some pex, and a circulator pump. Usually the water is used to pre-heat hot water tanks, or run through in-floor heating I was off on my number though, looks like average ground temperature is closer to 50 degrees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G+_610GARAGE Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 Joshua Burgess Oh, ok. That sounds interesting. Although I wonder why someone would use this type versus a heat pump geo system. A heat pump sounds like it would be more efficient. But then again, if you live somewhere hot and dry, this might be a great system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G+_Joshua “Wizdum” Burgess Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 610bob It actually works well, if not better, in colder climates. Heating up a room from 40 degrees to 70 degrees is a lot easier than heating a room up from -15 to 70. I should point out that i'm an American and using Fahrenheit here. heat pumps and deep geothermal work better, but you're talking tens of thousands of dollars vs. a few hundred, if that. This is the sort of thing a farmer can do in his spare time with parts he has laying around. Wayne Hobbins Thats why no one uses them as a sole source of heat. You don't heat you're home with one, you just try to keep the ambient temp above freezing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G+_610GARAGE Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Joshua Burgess Oh, so this is not for maintaining a living space at 72 degrees, but to maintain something like a detached garage at above freezing and below sweltering. Then if you want heat/cool, turn on your furnace/ac or whatever to bring it the rest of the way up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G+_Joshua “Wizdum” Burgess Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 610bob Right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G+_Jason Marsh Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 In the far northern reaches of the US, I've seen a similar refrigeration setup with about 5,000 gallons of thermal mass. The water is allowed to cool via outdoor heat exchanger in cold months, and the mass is used to cool a very well-insulated icebox. Buried and insulated with something like 8 inches of closed-cell foam it lasts very well through the relatively short summer season up there. I forget what was used, but they did have to put something in to lower the freezing point so it didn't turn to a 5000 gal block of ice. We don't get enough winter for something like that down here in AR, though. I've considered a RYO thermomass/geo system for my home. I have a friend in the HVAC business that could handle the heat pump end, but OMG I have nothing but large rocks and roots. Even with a good excavator, it would be a huge PITA to bury a large thermal mass or a few thousand feet of line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G+_T Nohands Posted August 27, 2015 Author Share Posted August 27, 2015 610bob No the container is fill and sealed with water and then there's hundreds of feet of thermal pex connected to bulkheads Air is pushed through the flexible PVC (never solid the ground will shift no matter where you live) From PVC into lower bulkheads through a few hundred feet plus of thermal PEX that's in the container full of water the the air comes out the bulkheads on top back into flex PVC and up out of ground and into any ventilation setup or can be run through various setups to act as a wide area ac & heating system. But most use this configuration to treat the air around an ac compressor or as hybrid the return cooled or moderated air is pushed into the return vent of the home ac so the air entering the system is at a temperature the is at a prefered state for the home unit to raise or lower the air temp using far less energy than it would otherwise take even with the extra inline squirrel cage fan they are extremely efficient when running a compressed system which is a must because these systems must be calibrated so the pressure to handle the condensation that forms inside also thermal PEX is designed to carry hot water and transfer heat out when running that action in reverse the more pressure the air on the sides of the PEX the more heat is compressed against the walls of the PEX which cools or warms the air more efficiently unless it's over pressured then the fan will be damaged before hot air comes out the other end when you have the right ratio. I've had a lot ask what a squirrel cage fan is, well there are high end and low end but a squirrel cage is like what a water & fire damage company uses like servpro those big loud fans they run to blast walls and floors to put water in in the air ask Fr. Robert Ballecer, SJ how that works but the best example of what the tech community knows are the single blower graphics cards bad use they use centripetal force to move air that's really the distinction of a squirrel cage than other fans and are common when you want air pressure in vents or tubing bu not on a graphics card but next to the graphics card that has fans blowing air off the card at the blower can be useful but loud. Sorry got sidetracked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G+_T Nohands Posted August 27, 2015 Author Share Posted August 27, 2015 Jason Marsh These are 6 feet of earth on top stays upper 60's low 70's no matter what when that deep in thawableful earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G+_T Nohands Posted August 27, 2015 Author Share Posted August 27, 2015 610bob Oh they can keep any room in that range if the walls are 6 in closed cell foam at R9 per inch and R40 on ceiling but low 70's is just a little chilly (recent studies suggest the ladies won't like that range without sweaters) but yes it's more efficient for the heating and cooling system to move the temp up & down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G+_T Nohands Posted August 27, 2015 Author Share Posted August 27, 2015 Joshua Burgess Not really so it's the geothermal temp at that depth there's a city in Australia Coober Pedy can be 130 degrees outside sweaters inside the homes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G+_T Nohands Posted August 27, 2015 Author Share Posted August 27, 2015 Wayne Hobbins it's the same in clay layers in the rest of the earth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G+_T Nohands Posted August 27, 2015 Author Share Posted August 27, 2015 YES you got it but also keep in mind if the air is colder like 45 degrees if yo have a valve at the end of the setup that can be calibrated and fine tuned the pressure inline you can compress the air and speed up fan to keep same cfm output you can warm the air up to high 60's lower 70's Fr. Robert Ballecer, SJ can explain why higher pressure warms better than Slightly lower pressure that's optimal for cooling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G+_Neil Carmichael Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 A friend of a friend turned an unwanted (outdoor) pool into a giant thermal store, he just did it with bolders, baffles, ducting and fans. Personally, I'd of kept the pool! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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